Quick Bits: Winter Meetings (pt.3)
December 8, 2009, 6:00 pm by iYankees · 32 Comments
Okay, so there were quite a few news items as the Yankees dealt for Granderson.
- Even though the Yanks are getting Curtis Granderson, the team may still consider Johnny Damon.
- The White Sox, like the Angels, are interested in Hideki Matsui but they want him to play the OF/DH.
- The Yankees will meet with many agents this week, including Casey Close, Ben Sheets’ representation.
- The Cardinals might be close to bowing out of the Matt Holliday sweepstakes, according to Jayson Stark.
- The Braves will trade Rafael Soriano after he accepted arbitration yesterday. The Yanks aren’t interested.
- In a shocking non-player move, Peter Gammons will be leaving ESPN for the MLB Network (that’s big).
Back with more later. Stay tuned.
I would like to see Matsui back at DH over Damon in LF/DH or any other combination of players that would take his spot. He will be the best overall DH you can have on this market for a 1 year deal and for probably less than 10 million, he knows the team and he will hit better than Damon for cheaper.
Sheets is one of the guys we really need to focus on right now, we have the outfield fixed now as long as we bring back Matsui to DH and we allow Melky to take over in LF. IF we get Sheets as the 4th starter our lineup is set and we have Sabathia, Burnett, Pettitte and Sheets to start the season and we won’t have to worry about what happens with injury and can Joba and Hughes both start the beginning of the season.
I still say Mike Gonzalez might be someone to look out now that Coke has been traded another spot in the bullpen has opened up.
Mariano Rivera (CL)
Mike Gonzalez (SU)
David Robertson (RHP)
Damaso Marte (LHP)
ALfredo Aceves (RHP)
Chad Gaudin (RHP)
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Michael Dunn
Jonathan Albaladejo
Mark Melancon
Romulo Sanchez
Wilkin De La Rosa
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With Granderson’s trouble against LHP, wouldn’t the best plan (assuming you can get them on one year deals) be signing both Cameron and Damon?
The OF against RHP – Cameron, Granderson, Swisher with Damon at DH
The OF against LHP – Damon, Cameron, Swisher with Posada/ARod/Jeter at DH
Keep one of Melky or Gardner as the 4th OF and flip one of them in a trade for whatever the best package available for one of them happens to be out there.
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So you want to give Cameron a 1 year deal for 6-10 million and then give Damon a 204 year deal for 12+ million per year while giving up Kennedy and Jackson for Granderson to only play him against right handed pitching?
I don’t think the Yankees would have made this trade if they didn’t think Granderson could start every game and hit lefties while playing above average D so I really don’t see anyway they traded for him to make him a platoon player.
Melky will start in LF and should start in LF with his arm and his bat is below average for LF but Granderson’s is above average in CF so it equals out.
Besides Granderson, Posada and Damon don’t provide good enough protection for Arod hitting in the 5th hole and there is no way Damon will duplicate last years numbers which were career highs in HRs and if he can’t hit 24+ HRs he isn’t a DH.
Jeter
Granderson, CF
Tex
Arod
Matsui, DH
Posada, C
Cano
Swisher
Melky, LF
that lineup is more than fine!
The only lineup with both Granderson and Damon I like is not as good for protecting Alex.
Jeter
Damon, DH
Granderson, CF
Tex
Arod
Posada, C
Cano
Swisher
Melky, LF
Either way Melky should play LF.
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It’s pretty funny that a guy who criticizes others of not thoroughly reading his post said this – “So you want to give Cameron a 1 year deal for 6-10 million and then give Damon a 204 year deal for 12+ million per year” (I assume 204 = 2-4 but maybe you can’t type well)
And that was in response to this – “With Granderson’s trouble against LHP, wouldn’t the best plan (assuming you can get them on one year deals) be signing both Cameron and Damon?”
I will highlight the relevant part again in case you can’t read it above “assuming you can get them on one year deals”. In fact, let’s paste it one more time – “assuming you can get them on one year deals”
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Also, fangraphs says Garnder has a more valuable arm than Melky’s. Melky probably has more arm strength but Gardner gets rid of the ball faster and is more accurate. Gardner was worth 2 WAR in less PA than Melky last season (1.6 WAR for Melky). Gardner is a better defender. Gardner is more patient at the plate.
If they want to go cheap and not sign a LF, then they should just put Gardner in CF and Granderson in LF.
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Melky has the stronger arm… defensive statistics on arms aren’t exact science and they don’t take into account the difference in someone who throws a lot and someone who doesn’t.
Melky throws home a lot because he believes in his arm so he is going to have more runs score on his arm in the defensive metrics because of that and a guy like Gardner who has a weak arm knows that and doesn’t throw as much, so less balls get away and less guys move up on bad throws. However I am going completely on arm strength which you would know had you read.
Melky is better with the bat and terrible coming off the bench, you might as well trade him if you put him on the bench because he can’t pinch hit very well at all and you don’t need a defensive replacement anymore if Damon isn’t in LF.
Melky should be the one in LF it makes the most sense defensively based on his arm and the fact he is a much better defender on the corner and Gardner has never played the corners before.
They didn’t trade for Granderson to make him the LFer, they traded for Granderson with the 100% confidence he can play CF every day and hit in the 2 hole.
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Hey, if you want to swim upstream and argue that a system that takes into account EVERY throw from EVERY OF all season long is wrong and your perception is right, more power to you. I am just not going to continue that argument since you have entered “dumb fans you meet at the stadium who base everything on BA” territory.
I do agree Melky should be traded. Once they sign Damon and Cameron to one year deals.
It’s pretty unbelievable that you actually think Melky would be better defensively than Gardner in LF. Gardner’s pure speed instantly makes him better. Once you play CF, you can easily become a corner OF. Also, Gardner played 145 innings for the Yankees in LF in 2008. Clearly he is capable, but is usually put in CF due to being the best defensive OF they have.
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So you are going to say that defensive metrics are perfect? Even the poeple who rely on them admit they have flaws… You just refuse to acknowledge anyone else has an idea of whats going on but you… Have fun with that.
Gardner would be better in LF at catching balls and he can cover more ground that Melky but Cabrera has the much stronger arm and after going through the last few years with Damon’s arm I would much rather have Melky’s 13-18 HRs and his strong arm in LF than I would Gardner’s speed and 2-5 HRs.
It’s not that I think Melky alone in LF is better than Gardner in LF it’s the whole package.
Melky’s bat and arm in LF with the weapon that Gardner is off the bench is much more dangerous than Gardner in LF with Melky providing nothing off the bench because he isn’t a good hitter off the bench.
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I already explained it to you pretty clearly! Melky throws more so he allows more runners to move up and score on his arm because he is putting it out there more and throwing to home trying to cut off runs as where Gardner will sit on a ball and not throw the ball so Melky will have more wild throws which will lower Melky’s rating and raise Gardner’s.
It doesn’t mean Gardner has a stronger arm because he doesn’t, Melky has the strongest arm of anyone in our outfield including the newly added Granderson if you put Melky in LF no one will be able to sac fly to the left side of the field and going from first to third and from 2nd to home will be a lot more difficult with Melky than Gardner.
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From all reports Cameron wants 6-10 million and Damon wants more than Abreu got and he got 2 years and 19 million… there is no way they would take one year deals… I read that you want them on 1 year deals but that just isn’t going to happen.
I would like John Lackey on a 2 year deal for 10 million total but that won’t happen either. You have to be realistic.
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Cameron will take a 1 year deal I meant to say there is no way Damon takes a 1 year deal, he says he wants to be a Yankee but he doesn’t want to be a Yankee so badly that he would allow himself to lose his best value!
Damon is at his highest value point right now and he will only lose value next year, he wants a multi year contract so he can make his money while he can and I don’t blame him. He already has 2 world series rings and now it’s time to get paid again, why take a 1 year deal for 9 million or so when he could go out and 2 or 3 million for 9-12 million somewhere.
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Hey, if Damon won’t take a one year deal, I bet Nady would. And they could do the same thing I proposed with Nady taking Damon’s place as DH against RHP/LF against LHP.
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I like Nady a lot but last I heard he was being offered a starting spot on the Cardinals outfield and I really don’t know if I trust Nady after coming off Tommy John Surgery because it is more of an unknown with how it effects position players and his bat.
I really don’t see a better idea than re-signing Matsui to DH and having Melky in LF and then you have Gardner coming off the bench to pinch run or hit and occasionally go out into the field against a right hander here and there.
Jeter, SS
Granderson, CF
Tex, 1B
Arod, 3B
Matsui, DH
Posada, C
Cano, 2B
Swisher, RF
Melky, LF
I don’t see any reason that Granderson can’t hit lefties again and play everyday, why are you so quick to make him a platoon player? In 2008 he hit .259 against left handed pitchers that isn’t bad and it’s much better than the .180 he hit this year… for what it’s worth I think he is much closer to 2008 in talent than the guy he was in 2009.
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The Yankees would also be offering Nady a starting spot, just at DH. Seems he would be more likely to want to stay with the Yankees on a one year deal and rebuild his value while taking advantage of the national exposure to hopefully get a bigger deal next offseason.
“I don’t see any reason that Granderson can’t hit lefties again”
Again? He never has. 2008 – .259/.310/.429 Still below league average.
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I wouldn’t want Nady as anything more than a 4th outfielder right now! He is coming off of surgery and if you are counting on him to get 400+ ABs I don’t know how you can. I would much rather have Matsui at full time DH over either Damon or Nady!
Hitting .259 is fine when you consider the caliber of player he is and the numbers he has put up hitting under .200 against lefties in his career, if he can just hit .240+ he is as good or better than Damon… Damon hit .269 against lefties and he didn’t hit righties nearly as well as Granderson has and yet Damon hit 2nd in the lineup for us in a world series team.
Compare Damon’s 2009 numbers to Granderson’s 2008 numbers… You can basically replace Damon with Ganderson and those numbers.
Granderson hit .303 in 2007 because he hit .337 against righties and only .160 against lefties if he had hit .259 against lefties that year he would have hit over .310.
All Granderson has to do is hit .259 against lefties which he has done before, if he does that he is an evetyday player!
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The TJS shouldn’t affect Nady at least being able to bat, as he was still able to bat even when he was injured last season. His only problem was throwing. So, if he isn’t healthy enough to throw from the start of the season, he can still DH until he is able to throw.
Damon 2009 against LHP – .269/.332/.444
Granderson 2008 vs LHP – .259/.310/.429
Please stop trying to make arguments based on BA. It’s an inferior statistic when compared to OBP, OPS, wOBA, WAR, and almost every other statistic other than RBI.
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And keep in mind we were comparing stat lines against LHP for different seasons, one in Granderson’s prime and one of his better seasons against LHP and Damon clearly out of his prime in not one of his best seasons against. So, we should actually look at career splits vs LHP. In that case –
Damon – .283/.346/.403
Granderson – .210/.270/.344
135 points in OPS is a HUGE difference.
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I will never stop defending my beliefs Ted and you don’t have to either but as I have said before if you don’t like what I have to say don’t read my posts or respond you are the one that loses out not me.
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So what number does Curtis Granderson wear and what number does Joe Girardi wear? Currently no one on the team wears number 28 which is Granderson’s number with Detroit but Joe had plans to take that number upon winning championship number 27.
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If he put up those numbers he would be Pujols. So, yes I would let Pujols play CF. Unfortunately its very unlikely he puts up numbers matching his best season against RHP and best season against LHP in the same season, especially with that season against RHP being supported by a BABIP 41 points above his career average.
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Sizemore was going from ages 22 and 23 in 05 and 06 to ages 24 and 25 in 07 and 08. Ages when players are very likely to progress offensively.
Granderson declined against LHP going from age 27 to 28, but now you expect him to progress again. Not as likely.
In fact, it’s quite apples to oranges.
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He also got injuured between 27 and 28 and I think that explains part of his decline and the other side was his falling in love with the HR… It’s not out of the question to see him make an improvement in his left handed hitting especially when he has proven to be able to hit lefties in the past.
If you don’t like him you don’t like him but to say he is nothing more than a platoon player is foolish.
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Granderson in 2008- 553 ABs, 155 H, 26 2B, 13 3B, 22 HRs, 71 BB, 111 Ks, 12 SB, 4 CS, .259 AVG Vs LHP
Damon in 2009- 550 ABs, 155 H, 36 2B, 3 3B, 24 HRs, 71 BB, 98 Ks, 12 SB, 0 CS, .269 AVG Vs LHP
The full stats are really quite comparable between the 2 seasons overall.
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You can more than win with Granderson in the 2 hole taking over for Damon’s numbers.
I also wasn’t comparing Granderson’s hitting lefties in 2008 to Damon in 2009 I was comparing the years each had in total.
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And keep in mind we were comparing stat lines against LHP for different seasons, one in Granderson’s prime and one of his better seasons against LHP and Damon clearly out of his prime in not one of his best seasons against. So, we should actually look at career splits vs LHP. In that case –
Damon – .283/.346/.403
Granderson – .210/.270/.344
135 points in OPS is a HUGE difference.
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Granderson 2008 vs LHP – .259/.310/.429 Which is more than fine if he can hit righties like he did in 2007 and I fully believe he can so I don’t see the problem… He isn’t as good at hitting lefties as Damon (as I said) but he’s not all that much worse and when you compare how much better Granderson can hit righties at this point Granderson is fine if he can hit lefties like that.
The point is still the same whether you want to use OBP or AVG it doesn’t matter Damon is slightly better hitting lefties and Granderson is slightly better hitting rightes but Granderson bring better D and more pure power to the lineup. If Granderson can just hit .259/.310/.429 with his skill level he will be fine starting everyday.
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It has nothing to do with the players! It’s about if you can live with Granderson’s numbers Vs Damon’s numbers the year we won the world series!
We aren’t comparing Granderson to Damon we are comparing Damon’s number in 2009 when we won a world series to what Granderson has to do to equal or surpass Damon’s value in the 2 hole hitting everyday.
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Career numbers don’t mean jack to this argument!
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Batting average doesn’t mean jack in ANY argument!!
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OK so you can’t defend your statement so you go onto something that has nothing to do with nothing? Really dude? Every time your arguments start to fail you go off on something else.
I already told you 259/.310/.429 is more than fine against lefties with the fact that Granderson can hit .337/.393/.621/1.014 against righties.
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You wouldn’t let Granderson play everyday in CF hitting in the 2 hole if he was hitting .259/.310/.429/.739 against lefties and 337/.393/.621/1.014 against righties? I would!
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In 2005 and 2006 Grady Sizemore had an OBP VS lefties of .296 and .290 respectively before reeling off 2 straight seasons of an OBP above .340 against lefties so it’s not unprecedented that he can turn back on the hitting of left handed pitchers and Sizemore actually had better overall years in 2005 an 06 but hit lefties better in 07 and 08.
If Granderson can keep his OBP above .300 against left handers he can stay in the lineup everyday if he starts slipping below that we may need to start looking into a platoon situation but I would like to give Kevin Long a good look at him before anything that extreme happens, I can’t imagine the team making the trade if they didn’t they could fix what ever problem he has had with lefties, it seems to be every other year he can hit lefties for some reason.
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