Let’s put Joba AND Hughes in the bullpen…
February 3, 2010, 6:00 pm by iYankees · 23 Comments
Seriously! Well, no, not seriously.
Here’s a bit on the subject from Joel Sherman (NY Post):
And, really, the bigger question the Yanks might want to ask in spring is not Joba vs. Hughes as much as 2010 vs. the future.
Because aren’t the 2010 Yanks much better if both Joba and Hughes are in the bullpen? Think about it.
As long as they have health with their main veteran starters — Sabathia, Burnett, Pettitte and Javier Vazquez — the importance of a No. 5 man dims.
The No. 5 competition could be among Alfredo Aceves, Chad Gaudin and Sergio Mitre. The winner probably could pitch to a 5.00 ERA and still win in double digits because of the strength of the Yankees’ offense, but also because the No. 5 starter would be backed by a bullpen that had both Chamberlain and Hughes.
Manager Joe Girardi is very protective of relievers, anyway, and with both Chamberlain and Hughes available, he could continue on that path more comfortably while further diminishing the temptation to ever push Rivera into the eighth inning before the postseason.
While I know that there are actually a number of folks out there that wholeheartedly believe using Joba Chamberlain and Phil Hughes, in tandem, in the Yankees’ bullpen is a good idea, as Sherman later realizes in his own piece, such a move is detrimental to the organization’s future with regards to starting pitching. Believe it or not but, at some point, Andy Pettitte will retire and Javier Vazquez will, if not retire, move on. Both starters could very well depart next season (both will be free agents) and, in order to prepare for tomorrow, the Yankees will have to plan accordingly today.
As Sherman himself notes, “To put both Chamberlain and Hughes into the pen would mean that neither is in position to be a full starter in 2011,” which, thankfully, all but eliminates any possibility of seeing both pitchers working as relievers this season. Furthering this belief is manager Joe Girardi, who struck down the idea when asked about it yesterday. “You can’t do anything for just one year,” he said. “We do weigh [the future], and that is difficult because you know the importance of winning now here. We would like to see one [of Joba or Hughes] develop as a starter [in 2010].”
I couldn’t have said it any better myself. With regards to young starting pitching, the Yankees need to think long-term, and putting Joba Chamberlain and Phil Hughes in the team’s bullpen in 2010 is simply a near-sighted approach.
Photo by Reuters
There is no reason not to think long term with these young pitchers.There is no pressing needs.The opportunity to develop a young starter is now.
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This 2010 season is a make or break season for both Joba and Phil Hughes. If the two young pitchers didn’t come up to the type, look for the Yankees to trade one of them next off-season.
Joba belongs to the pen. For now he is a perfect set-up guy for Mo. Joba can be the Yankees closer in the future when Rivera retires.
Phil Hughes on the other hand should be a starter. To do that the Yankees should increase his number of innings this season.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Managing, I agree with your post entirely, although as I posted below Hughes’ innings will be limited in 2010.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Make or break on 23 and 24 year old pitchers.I don’t think so.Joba has 82 innings for his minor career and 281 as a pro and to some people he’s done developing as a pitcher.HUGHES HAS 192 AS A PRO .Guys can we give them a little more time?
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I’d be fine with both of them in the bullpen this year, and given that Hughes’ innings will be limited this year he won’t be able to be a full time starter until next year anyway. Actually, I’d be happy with Joba in the bullpen for good, and Hughes stepping up to the rotation in 2011, if he proves himeself worthy for that role.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Ernie this is one of the first posts that I don’t agree with you.I don’t get it.Developing our own starting pitching seems so obvious to me and doing so takes time.Alot of great pitchers took 3 to 5 years to fully develop and considering Joba didn’t get many innings in the minors he still has a way to go.He has showed signs of brillance at times as a starter and with consistancy could be a top of the rotation starter.
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I completely agree with you Ballpark that developing your own starting pitching is very important. I guess the reason I feel this way is that I don’t believe Joba will cut it as an exceptional starter, and for me the jury is still out on Hughes.
I think one of Joba’s great strengths as a pitcher is the differential between his fastball and his cut or offspeed stuff. To me, his over-the-top effectiveness as a reliever is because he doesn’t have to pace himself – he knows he can come in for an inning or two and let it fly. When you are looking for a 96mph fastball and a pitcher throws you something 85mph (or vice versa), its hard to make the adjustment. But when you make Joba a starter, he is forced to cut back on his velocity in order to throw 100 pitches (which for him is about 5 innings work), and his fastball suffers…he’s in the low 90’s. The differential between his offspeed stuff and his fastball is not enough to fool major league hitters and he loses effectiveness.
Joba had moments of brilliance for sure…but many more moments of ineffectiveness, and many outings of 6 innings or less. But as soon as he shifted to the pen, the old Joba was back, dominating as usual. Now I know we’re spoiled as a fan base into thinking having a great closer is routine, but finding someone who thrives in that role is not so easy to find – the failure of closers this post-season (everyone but Rivera) goes to show that its not so easy to find someone who thrives in that role. Joba, in my mind, is well suited for that role, and the Yanks would be well served in my mind to groom him to be Rivera’s protege’, so that the late innings will be safe another 10-15 years. I’d rather have an all-star caliber late inning guy than a guy who shows flashes of brilliance but isn’t much more than 15-16 wins, maybe 10-12 losses, which is where I predict we might find Joba in a few years (Burnett-like in my mind, not Beckett-like).
Hughes needs time to develope, and in my mind is the better choice to groom into a starter. Whether he can handle that is not known…he is smart, but he needs to develop more pitches, and he needs to work on his confidence.
That’s just one man’s opinion. Its o.k. to disagree.
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Ernie a couple of things to consider.
What would CC be without his change?
What could JOBA be with a change?
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The Sox did it right with Buckholtz,they sent him down to improve/throw his change and when he came back he was a much better pitcher.Its the Yankees fault they rushed Joba not his and they need to give him a chance to mature as a starter.82 minor league innings is not enough time to develop or decide he’s not good enough to be a starter.
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I agree the Yanks rushed Joba….however its hard to put that Genie back in the bottle now.
I don’t know what CC would be like without his change….less effective for sure. What could Joba be with a change? Won’t know until it happens.
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But I’ll say this: the minute Joba gets beat for a late inning homer off his change fans will want his head, given he can throw 96.
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Texas Aug.4,2008,Joba walked off the mound holding his right shoulder.He hasn’t been the same since.The electric stuff that had him talked about in the same breath as Tim Lincecum was gone.
Whether in the pen or as a starter Joba is not the same pitcher.Dave Eiland is trying to correct Joba’s delivery flaw [inverted w]at the major league level while Joba is learning to pitch.Two things that take time and are very difficult to perfect.
[The inverted W],Data has shown that pitchers with this flaw in their delivery are at a high risk for shoulder problems [Joba 08].The inverted w is when pitcher gets to foot stike or landing,the ball is below the elbow pointing at the ground,causing the arm to be late or behind the body.The arm has to catch up causing added stress,torque to the shoulder.The correct position at foot strike has the the pitcher in the high cocked position or sometimes called the power position.The ball is above the elbow.There’s some more to it but I’ll be writing all day but thats the snapshot.
IMHO there’s much more to the Joba debate.Starter or pen is secondary to fixing and developing what was one of the best pitching prospects in all of baseball.
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Agreed. I do understand the sentiment for Joba in the pen, or Hughes as was the case last year. It is fun to watch them come in and dominate, and they are generally so much better than middle relievers that you feel, hey, I want this all the time.
But obviously, middle relievers are generally not starters because they aren’t good enough to be. And Joba and Hughes are good enough — or at least, they deserve the chance.
Besides, while both are still relatively young, I could see us going into their age-30 seasons with the Yanks saying, “Well, we’ve gotta protect those arms from too many innings.” And if that happens, Bob Feller will kill himself out of shame for when pitchers were men (or something), and Bob Gibson may kill Hughes and Joba.
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“But obviously, middle relievers are generally not starters because they aren’t good enough to be. And Joba and Hughes are good enough — or at least, they deserve the chance.”
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Most of the fans fail to remember, Mo came up as a starter and failed. Then they moved him to the Pen…the rest is history.
If either one of the two guys can’t cut it as a starter…fine, move them to the pen for a while (or ever).
If this were a perfect world I’d say; Joba starts and Phil goes to AAA, so he can get another pitch or two that is usable in the bigs.
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True, and it’s a point in favor of Joba being the next closer, especially, but Mo also had Tommy John, or something like it, right? It’s a long time ago, though, and I could be mistaken, but that would certainly lower expectations for a young Rivera.
Also, Rivera was in his age-25 year in 1995. At that point, he was barely a prospect age-wise, so tossing him in the pen wasn’t as tough a call.
But I think we agree on letting them both start till they prove they can’t. I just don’t see how either can be declared a failure as a starter at this point.
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True Mo had surgery, in the minors and it wasn’t Tommy John, it was something to do with his elbow though…that’s why he was as old as he was when he came up.
Also true, they can’t be considered as failures yet…as starters that is.
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Hughes to start
Joba in pen
Just ask Jorge
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Agreed….except that Hughes will have an innings limit eventually.
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The Yankees have options and much depends on how Andy P and Mo perform. In addition to Jobba and Hughes their is some emerging talent in the minors so how to position their pitchers is not a pressing issue.
While I hope the Yankees offense is as powerful as last year that is never assured and I do not believe that the loss of Matsui or Damon matters much.
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Yanks need to give BOTH these guys time to develop as starters. They built up Joba’s innings last year so that he can start this year without restictions. As Ballpark mentioned, Bucholz benefited from his time in the minors last year and perhaps the Yanks should do the same with Hughes. He has the FB, cutter & curve but would benefit from time to develop a change and to build up his arm strength/innings. After some time in the minors, you bring him up where he will help the team more (rotation or pen). It is MUCH easier to move a starter to the pen then vice versa which is why both should start 2010 as starters.
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Fishjam the Yanks have traded alot of young pitchers the last two years.and two of their better prospects Brackman and Betaunces have regressed.Joba and Hughes are the only young high end starters close to the majors that they can develop.
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Exactly, 3 or 4 years ago the Yanks were stocked in the minors with top pitching prospects. Now they aren’t as deep. Hughes & Joba are both still capable of being front end starting pitchers and they must be given that opportunity. The value of a front end starter is much higher than a reliever. Not that relievers are not important, they are, especially in the post-season. But just look at the open market – closers are always available at a reasonable price. Jose Valverde, 29, one of the top closers in the game got only 2 yrs – $14 mil.
Top starters get monster contracts and teams are getting wiser and locking up their young starters now so even if the Yanks are willing to spend $170 million on a starter in his prime like CC, they aren’t going to be as readily available. In the last yr, Verlander, Felix, Lester, Josh Johnson & Greinke signed multi-yr deals.
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